Patience is a strategic virtue in the journalism profession and tracking down Dr Emmanuel Chukwumedualim Chukwuma, the fiery Anglican Archbishop of the Enugu Ecclesiastical Province for an interview required it aplenty. Here is a very busy man who is constantly on the move: either abroad on missions for the church or, in this instance, simply unavailable on account of crucial ecclesiastical duties.
While bidding your time, you take in the scenic beauty of the Coal City and recall its history as former capital of the Eastern Region as well as the capital of the defunct Republic of Biafra. It is remarkable that the Coal City which is capital of the present day Enugu State was the capital of the old East Central State. You do a guided tour of the beautiful Enugu Campus of the University of Nigeria, Nsukka and wonder why it has remained an affiliate of the great UNN when other institutions less endowed in age, size and equipment already have degree awarding status. Anyway, those were the musings of a patient dog.
Luckily, you strike gold and what comes out is the quintessential Archbishop Chukwuma. You then engage the revered clergyman in a no-holds-barred conversation that is as detailed and informative as it is sizzling; no restrictions at all. Of course, this is hardly surprising to anyone familiar with the trajectory of Chukwuma, from his days as the Anglican Bishop of Bauchi and state Chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) to the present. He speaks boldly to power. He says it as it is.
While some dub him controversial, he sees himself as an altruistic champion of the underdog and a defender of the faith. TheEconomy magazine’s Chinedu Obike, recently spent an afternoon with the charismatic Archbishop in an interview that is as diverse in coverage as it is detailed. Excerpts:
You started off as a teacher before you went into priesthood. Are you satisfied with the state of the teaching profession in present-day Nigeria?
Well, as a trained teacher and educationist, I am of the opinion that things have gone badly. When we started teaching, it was an appreciated profession but today, we find that many of our people who are in it are frustrated. The motivation is no longer there and the re-enforcement that is designed to help the teachers to perform creditably no more exists. Some of the teachers today are not even sure of their pension or gratuity; some are not sure of their salaries and when a teacher is not paid, he cannot put in his best into the job and instead of being anointed to teach, it becomes annoyance. The equipment are not there; the structures are not there and these are the tools required to enhance learning. When you don’t have the proper learning environment and adequate teaching equipment, education suffers. There are three domains people can be trained in education: cognitive, which is intellectual; affective which deals with the area of emotion and psycho motive, which is about skills. If it is entrepreneurship that is being focused on now, where are the equipment? So, there is a lot to be done to encourage teaching today and if adequate equipment is not provided for a teacher to perform, it will be frustrating and that is the reason for incessant strikes involving university lecturers and non-academic staff. We don’t have quality education anymore. We have many universities now, but the quality has declined.
You are known for speaking out in matters concerning the people and the nation. At what point in your life did you discover you had an activist streak?
Well, I would say since after the civil war. You must understand that as a native of Asaba, I was a victim of the genocide; I narrowly escaped death; I was almost killed. My father said he prayed that if I survived the civil war, he would offer me to become a servant of God. I was to read law at the University of Ife (now Obafemi Awolowo University), but my father refused and insisted on me becoming a priest, in keeping with his promise to God.
As a teacher, you are trained to be courageous to deliver the message effectively; you are equipped to teach and talk to people. So, when I became a priest I spoke to the congregation with boldness. But it came fully when I became the Bishop of Bauchi in 1990 and then as Chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN), I faced persecution in 1991. Then there was this religious problem which led to the killing of many of our members and the burning of churches. It was at that point that the fierceness came into me and I had to defend the faith and all the Christians; I had to speak out and risk my life because the Bible says ‘he who has his life will lose it’. I risk my life for the good of the gospel and God has been with me. I have seen leaders, military and civilian leaders. So, I have nothing to fear. I see those in authority as human beings like me. I simply believe that the most important thing for any man of God is to be honest and truthful for it is only the truth that can set us free. And if your hands are clean and you are speaking the truth, you don’t need to fear anybody because the people who are in leadership positions come and go, but you will still be there. Many Governors, both military and civilian, have come and gone and that is how it is. By God’s grace, this is my 29th year as a Bishop. Why should I be afraid of anybody when I know that their stay is temporary? If God is with us, nobody can be against us.
Because of your nature as an outspoken priest, have you ever had conflicts with the Church or Government?
Well I don’t have conflicts with anybody in the church except when you disagree with those people who are not truthful. When I was coming to Enugu, there was the politics of indigene and non-indigene but I won the case in court and the people were impressed with the things I did and the projects I handled. You see, whenever you find yourself in a position of responsibility, please work to leave a legacy and once you do that, conflicts will go. Of course, you don’t expect everybody to love you, but if you are doing your work honestly, conflicts will come and go. In fact, if conflicts do not come, then consider yourself a failure. I believe in conflicts because they enable you to correct yourself. It is the way you handle conflicts that matter; you will disagree with some laymen, you will disagree with some clergy and then when they see that you are saying the truth, everybody will fall in line. In fact, there are conflicts everywhere: in government, either concerning land issues or appointments. When your members are sidelined, you speak out. These conflicts often come as a result of the selfishness of the governments or individuals who want to have their way. But when you are firm and you are a man of your word, nobody will toss you around. That is my own style. I have a principle and once I am convinced that I am right, you cannot toss me around.
You once threatened that Nigeria was going to pull out of the Anglican Communion unless the Archbishop of Canterbury changed his sympathetic attitude to gay marriage. What became of that threat?
You will remember that in 1998, I was one of those that attended the Lambent Conference in Kent; University of Kent, Britain. When this matter came up, I was the first Bishop that rose against the gay group in that conference, and it was all over the world. I said we cannot accept it and that we stand on the Biblical authority; that we feel that homosexuality (same sex) marriage is not part of our biblical belief. So, we threatened that if they didn’t come back to the right line, we would pull out and we have pulled out. So, when the Lambent Conference was held again in 2008, which comes up every 10 years, we refused to attend. Rather, we joined hands with other African countries and went to Jerusalem for our own conference. Not only that, we also told them that we will no longer be governed by same constitution. So we are now a self-governing church: The Church of Nigeria; with our own government and constitution. Of course, we have no financial links with them anymore and they are not helping us in anyway. We are self-sufficient and have nothing to do with them. We have our conferences coming up in Nairobi, Kenya and Jerusalem. We now shun all the Lambent Conferences. They have postponed the conference for this year until about next year or so, thinking that they can woo us back, but our stand remains. They brought this religion to us. Are they now telling us that the Bible is wrong? When God said it is not good that man should be alone and made him a helper in Genesis 2:14, he created a woman for the man and you are telling me it’s not right; it is madness. It is perversion. So, we have nothing to do with the Church of England anymore or … Church of America.
In other words, you support the government’s attitude to the issue of same sex marriage?
We also engineered that, as a matter of fact. We urged the lawmakers not to support it. We are happy that when the topic came up in the National Assembly, God prevailed and the members did not succumb to that kind of law.
Sometime in the 80s, the famous Nigerian novelist Chinua Achebe wrote a book titled ‘The Trouble with Nigeria” and blamed it on the failure of leadership. In your own thinking, what is the problem with Nigeria?
Nigeria is a blessed country. It is blessed with a lot of resources – human and material. The problem with Nigeria is bad governance, simple; bad governance in the sense that we have not been able to get the right people to govern Nigeria. The old cargoes have consistently recycled themselves and have nothing to offer anymore and this is why I have said that you cannot put a new wine into an old wineskin. See what is happening in Africa; see what is happening all over the world. Look at France; what is the age of the man there? Look at Liberia, the man there who was a footballer; the time has come now that people who had been in this government for years to give way for a new spirit to come in and that was why I said, recently, that those above 70 years should not be leaders of this nation, because at 70, you are already declining intellectually. The cabals are the ones controlling you and they are all aged, too; they are analogue and expired. Nigeria needs new spirit that must be concerned about sacrificial governance; people who are ready to lead sacrificially to make this country better. Not people who are coming to be served rather than serving. You see, Nigeria has a lot of human resources; people of high intelligence. I am talking about technocrats who can also take Nigeria to greater heights if they are allowed to have the space. That is why in the current dispensation, Nigerians should be thinking about the people coming to rule them. We should no longer be deceived by party spirit and I am telling you that we are not going to be concerned about party anymore. We are going to be guided by integrity, performance and pedigree; people who have the integrity to rule this country and give us good governance. All along it is just the same people that have been recycling themselves.
The President has done his best and it is good for him to get out when the ovation is loudest. We are not saying that he is bad, but that he has done his best. At 75, for God’s sake, I don’t think he has anything to offer anymore than the people around him who are pushing him around and want him to continue so that they will be able to perpetrate their evil.
Corruption is still going on and people like Obasanjo have nothing to offer. Obasanjo cannot continue to talk about coalition because that cannot save Nigeria; what will save Nigeria today is new hearts of sacrifice. Obasanjo is one of those who put the citizens into this problem, so, for him to write to Buhari is to ridicule himself. He should respect himself and go into retirement just like Babangida has done. These retired Generals should go and rest. We don’t want ‘military democracy’. We want civilian democracy run by people who are young, intelligent and ready to serve Nigeria and ready to give the best for Nigeria to move forward. We don’t want this kind of analogue people who are already expired; it won’t help Nigeria because the same things will continue to occur. Thirty years ago, you told the young people they will be leaders of this nation and 30 years after you are still there. When will the young people become the leaders of this nation? Unemployment is going higher and the economy is very bad because of squander mania. People are no more ready for service and are no more concerned with integrity. These people that have been taking our money, how many of them have been arrested and put in jail? There is need for sincerity in governance. There must be justice and equity.
Do you really think that age has a lot to do with it?
Oh yes! Age has a lot to do with it. We need to find people with new ideas, new technology and new spirit. Look at the people who are in government and you’ll see that they are already finished. People retire at the age of 65 or 70. Why should somebody want to rule Nigeria after 70? The limit for anyone who wants to rule Nigeria should be 65 so that by the time you finish your first term you will be 70 and once you are 70 you are no longer fit. At that point, you become a consultant or an adviser. Let me tell you, from 70 years of age, diminishing returns will set in; intellectual ability and intelligence quotient (IQ) level will depreciate.
In fact, our President is not actually the one doing the things you see. The man is doing his best but the expired and analogue cabals around him are the agents working against him. They should give way, let’s have a new spirit. So, age is very important because what a young man can do, an old man cannot do it.
Nigeria is in a season of letter writing and both Obasanjo and Buhari have written to President Buhari. If you are to write yours, as well, what would be your message to the incumbent President?
Before they started writing, you would have read in the papers where they said, “Bishop Chukwuma bombs Buhari”. I have already made a statement, I don’t need to write. I have already said it on the pulpit and the papers. All I need to write is to say is “Mr Man go and rest. You have tried your best. Relinquish the post for the new generation”. That is what I would write. So whatever they are writing now is not new and they were the people who also put him there. So, they are not relevant and are unqualified to be writing letters. They are all military generals and I think they are just advising themselves. If they are advising the man and asking him to step down, they should all keep clear and desist from influencing anybody in leadership in Nigeria. Let us elect our leaders by ourselves, by the will of ourselves, to govern ourselves, as civilians and not with military might and that is it.
The President came in with a three-pronged agenda: to fix the economy, tackle insecurity and fight corruption. In your estimation, how well has he fared?
I commend him for what he has done in terms of exposing corruption has been exposed, even though he has not totally fought it. He has exposed corruption and made us to know that people stole our money. But then the question is ‘what has happened to the people who stole our money?’ You have to arrest them to teach lessons. Recovering money is good but not enough. What is the deterrent and punishment for those who stole the money? So, some people are sacred cows and it is unfortunate that once you steal and join the All Progressives Congress (APC), your case goes comatose. Why should it be so?
Now, talking about security, is it not worse than before? Has Boko Haram stopped? Now we have these Fulani herdsmen. What has the government done about that? It has become worse and if care is not taken, may lead to another civil or tribal war, if care is not taken. Security is not being well handled and that is why they are now talking about state police. The national police have not been able to handle things.
On the aspect of the economy, what was the exchange rate of the Naira? When he assumed office, Naira was exchanging for less than what it is today. There is galloping inflation. Salaries are not increased; we cannot fight corruption in the midst of hunger. We then ask ‘where is the change?’ Change should actually make things better, but people say change has become chained; we are chained to a spot, we are not moving forward.
I want to see something better: the roads are not being fixed properly; medical services are not in proper shape. Why should many of them go for treatment abroad if our own medical services were in order? Doctors are on strike all the time. They must review their policies. The national conference that was held, there are many things there that this government must not shy away from. As far as I am concerned, security is not yet in proper shape and the economy is bad. In fact, as far as am concerned, the unity of this country is still negotiable. Until we negotiate it and agree through restructuring, we are not going anywhere.
But the government is already embarking on restructuring…
It depends on which area and how they want it to be. In whatever area we choose to restructure, there should be an equitable agreement. I don’t believe in a restructuring that will destroy Nigeria; I believe in the restructuring that will bring us together and make the ship of state move smoothly. But if you do a restructuring that is one sided, in which some people are marginalised; a situation where equity and justice are absent, then that restructuring is not acceptable.
What is your reaction to restructuring as proposed by the government?
They have not said exactly what they want to do; let’s put the card on the table and begin to talk about it, one after the other.
What is your idea of restructuring?
Simply put, restructuring is equity, justice, equal sharing and sense of belonging; making sure that money is not concentrated on one side. Everybody must have a share. You cannot have many states in one area and create just five in the South East. We have to restructure it. There must be equitable sharing. While we are not saying that Nigeria should be divided, the fact remains that some people are having too much money to themselves. I have lived in Bauchi. If you look at a place like Alikeri Local government in Bauchi State, there is nothing there, but they receive equal share with the local governments in Enugu where you have more people and more responsibilities.
Populations are distorted; do we really have sincere population census in Nigeria? These are the issues. In the north, they count cows as part of their family and this is not fair. It has been confessed that there was a mistake with the way Nigeria is divided; that the south was cheated. More power is given to the north and they think they are more powerful than everyone else. They must understand that God has given every region their own power and resources from above, which all of us must build together to move the country forward, rather than being selfish and self-centred.
The Federal Government is proposing cattle colonies to stem herdsmen/farmers clashes in parts of the country. Is that the way to go?
No! Whether ranches or colonies, that is not the way to go. How can we talk about going back to agriculture when farmers cannot go to their farms for fear of being killed? How can we turn agriculture into a fruitful venture when cows are ravaging the farms, crops are destroyed and farmers killed, raped or maimed? It will not work. I lived in the north and never saw cows roaming the streets. I have not seen cows destroying farms in the north; let them tell us where it has happened in the north. But in the south, you will bring all your cows out here and you are not concerned about destroying our farms; you are not concerned about these Fulani people raping our women and killing them; you are not concerned about the people going about with AK47. Where do they get them from? These are the issues and there is selective negligence in our security affairs. We also know that colonies or ranches are individual businesses. Are you also talking about ranches for those of who have poultry or piggery? Cow rearing is private business and should not be a national concern. Anybody who wants to rear cows should go and purchase a land and put his cows there. It should not be a government policy. We also have people who rear goats, rabbits and these are all personal businesses.
The Fulani herdsmen issue is a time-bomb. These people should be declared terrorists. The members of the Indigenous People of Biafra (IPOB) were agitating for their rights but were declared terrorists. It is unfair. This is what I mean by selective negligence. These herdsmen are killing people and you are talking about giving them colonies or ranches; they don’t deserve it. If any governor tries it in the South East, we will be out for him. This area is a Christian zone and nobody can use colonies or ranches to Islamise us. We will resist it.
Our IPOB is keeping quiet but if we are pushed to the wall, they will defend us. Herdsmen must be declared as terrorists; otherwise, if they come to this area with their nonsense, we shall bring out IPOB to face them.
Are you implying that setting up colonies means Islamisation?
By setting up these colonies, they will be gradually and indirectly influencing the area with Islamic populace. Wherever you find colonies, you will see trailers coming down with loads of cows and Fulani. When you have a colony, they will invade the area and we don’t want that.
Recently, there was a report of a likely infiltration by the Islamic State fighters. Isn’t it possible that the herdsmen are not the actual killers?
They come in disguise. People need to open their eyes. Some of them are Fulani herdsmen in disguise. The Fulani herdsmen we knew in the past were not violent people; they went about with their stick. Of course Fulani herdsmen of those days were Fulfudes but today, are they Fulfudes? Some of them are imported Fulani herdsmen who have come for real jihad and what we are seeing today is jihad in disguise. And we are watching, but a time would come that, even in Benue everybody will begin to indulge in reprisal and that will be dangerous. That is why the government must be very careful right now because we would not tolerate it.
Why is it not happening in Sokoto and some of the areas? Why are the Middle Belt and some of us here the real victims, if not that there is a sort of hidden agenda to use it to Islamise the areas. The truth is that we can never be Islamised in this country. If they want to Islamise Nigeria, we will also Christianize the country. So we shall fight it together. The problem in this country now is that the Muslims are Islamising and Christians are saying that this country belongs to every one of us. Nobody can force any religion on people through one disguise or the order and by colonies or ranches. We would not accept it. It’s a private business so let them stay where they are. That is why we are saying the government should be very careful. They seem to be taking sides with the Fulani herdsmen and that is why they are getting swollen headed and daring. So far, no pronouncement has been made to ban or declare them as dangerous. That is not fair. The IPOB people were just defending their rights and never killed anybody. They were not dangerous either, but were declared as terrorists. These other people are Boko Haram in disguise; hiding under the cloak of the herdsmen. They are the terrorists and if they don’t take time, you would find serious war.
What is the panacea for lasting peace between farmers and herdsmen?
If the government’s desire is for food sufficiency through agriculture, then the herdsmen must respect the farmers and desist from invading their farms. If allowed to roam without control or restrictions, they will destroy the farms and conflicts will arise. So, government should find a way to restrict the Fulani herdsmen and prevent them from invading the farms. By the way, how many herdsmen have ever been arrested; are they ghosts? To avoid these conflicts, cattle must be restricted and erring herdsmen arrested and prosecuted. Otherwise, there may be reprisals as in the case where 73 cows were killed and it became an issue, giving the impression that cows are more precious than human beings. To achieve peace, there must be mutual respect and tolerance by both parties; the herdsmen must be stopped from carrying arms, ravaging the farms and killing the farmers.
You recently took a swipe at elected office holders who leave their parties for another. What do you have against cross carpeting?
I have a lot of grudges against cross carpeting because it amounts to insincerity, disloyalty, selfishness and political prostitution. Now, imagine somebody who was elected into a post on the platform of a particular party and suddenly decides to abandon that party for another one. Why? The party on which platform you stood and won election cannot be abandoned for another one; it was the party that brought you into that post. Are they saying that parties are now irrelevant? You cannot abandon the party that brought you into power and still remain in that position. It is unfair and it is misjudgement and injustice. It is self centeredness and selfishness. It should be controlled. You cannot move to a ruling party to the detriment of the one you swore to be loyal to. So, if we can make a law to stop it, people will be loyal to their parties and there will be no hypocrisy.
Now everybody wants to be a member of the ruling party and once you are there, you escape judgement; you escape EFCC. It is corruption. Jumping from one party to another is corruption. Many people who are jumping to APC have one or two cases of embezzlement to answer but once they move to APC their cases are closed. I can mention one or two names but I don’t want to do that; we know them. Once they join the APC its (Governors or members of the law making house), nobody talks about it again. And they would now become friends of the President; dining with him. It is a shame.
At the burial of Dr Alex Ekwueme you asked who among the political leaders in the South East could step into the shoes of Azikiwe, Ojukwu and the former Vice President. Is that a vote of no confidence on political leaders of Igbo extraction?
It is a challenge to them to make themselves available to replace those who have gone. Someone like Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe of the blessed memory did not do politics of embezzlement; same goes for Ojukwu who fought for his people. How much wealth did he amass? The late Ekwueme was a hard-working man, who had a booming business before he joined politics and made a mark; he did not do politics with bitterness. How many of our people in politics today have businesses to fall back on when politics fails? Now we have politics of selfishness, aggrandisement and materialism. Our Igbo leaders must learn to know the right thing to do to make them trustworthy and dependable. Many of them are not interested in the welfare of the people but in their own selfish interests. I then asked who among you Igbo elites would take up this quality of selfless leadership; of thinking more about those that you are leading than yourself. These people fought for the good of all.
Many of the past leaders had investments. Ojukwu had investments from his father. Nnamdi Azikiwe was interested in the politics of unity and progress. But these days, what you see among our people is quarrels, castigation and PhD (Pull Him Down) syndrome. Everybody wants to climb up but things can only get better when they can sacrificially say, ‘go on our behalf’.
But then there is too much money politicking in Igbo land, more than anywhere else. Imagine the last Anambra State governorship election; go and find out how much billions was wasted. Money that should have been used to build industries or develop the place was wasted just for governorship election. In fact, I feel ashamed of the Igbos, because if the money wasted was used to build industries to employ the IPOB members and others agitating for Biafra, they would have been happy. The situation is worse in Anambra.
So, who among these people is capable of stepping into the shoes of the sages? Definitely none of them; they should go and examine themselves and repent; they must learn to play the politics of selflessness and inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness.
What is the problem with the South-East?
The problem of the South-East is lack of unity and sense of direction in leadership; everybody wants to be a leader. They say Igbo enweghi eze (Igbo do not have kings), but I tell you something: if the Sultan of Sokoto comes out his followers will go with him and if the Oni of Ife comes out, he stands in the name of Yoruba. But who is that Igwe that will come out and the Igbos follow him. Everybody wants to be a leader. The only people that are projected in national traditional rulers’ council are the Sultan and Oni but we have people here who are quite capable. It is a shame on us. The Obi of Onitsha is quite a respectable and responsible man. The South-South leader from Rivers State, who acted as Chairman in the last meeting we held at Port Harcourt, is also responsible. There is no unity; there is no agreement of who is our leader; that is the problem of the South-East and South-South. It is only when we acknowledge that somebody will lead and the others follow that we can talk about a sense of direction. When you don’t speak with one voice, it shows disunity and people laugh at us. It does not show that we are united.
Are the Governors of the South-East in agreement? Thank God they came together during the burial of Ekwueme and seemed to be in agreement. Rochas Okorocha is a different species entirely and he is doing whatever he likes in Imo State. Some Governors in the South-East have question marks. The Governors of Imo and Abia states should examine themselves: salaries are not being paid and pensioners are owed. Why should you talk about ceremonies that will involve a lot of money when salaries have not been paid? Judges are not being paid in Imo State. It’s a shame. And the governor is appointing his sister as Commissioner for Happiness. Is that a good example? Where else in Nigeria do you find that? You go about moulding monuments everywhere. There “akpuolagi?” (Meaning: have you been moulded?) has become a new form of greeting in Imo State. What is the relevance of these monuments to Imo State? I have confronted the governor face to face and I have also written to him; we have talked about it and that is why everything is silent now.
But he alleged you are a card-carrying member of a political party
He has not proved it. I am not a card-carrying member of any political party; I am just an advocate of the people. I have challenged him to prove that I belong to a political party and if he does, I will resign as a Bishop; he is yet to show proof. I am not a card-carrying member of any party and I don’t have to be in order to speak out. We are oracles; we are the prophets of today and every clergyman must speak out when he sees that something is wrong.
I am not a member of any party and I don’t want to be. I can face any governor or any party that is not doing right, ok? That is it. When the governor of Enugu State was accused of embarking on a wrong project, we condemned it and he stopped. When he is doing well, we commend him. He is working for all, so, you cannot accuse him of anything. I don’t belong to the People’s Democratic Party (PDP) or the All Progressives Congress (APC). The chairman of APC is a very good friend and we relate well. Ngige is my good friend and we talk. So, what are we talking about?
The issue is that the people are suffering and they are complaining to us. How can a government in this South East give a cheque to the pensioners and the cheque will bounce? Who will speak for them if the church cannot? You expect me to keep quiet when some of them are my members? Desmond Tutu did not keep quiet in South Africa and he did not have to belong to any party to help his country to get out of apartheid. That’s what we are out for, and the Anglican Church speaks out; we are first among equals. Anglican Church came to Onitsha before any other denomination and we cannot keep quiet.
I knew Okorocha when I was in Bauchi and he was in Jos. I knew when he started. I saw him during the burial ceremonies of Ekwueme and he was trying to become friendly. He knows that I know him well and cannot talk nonsense to me. He is there today; tomorrow he will quit that office but we will still be here. Let him show proof that I belong to a political party, but if not, I demand an apology from Okorocha.
What is the Church doing to redeem itself from the accusations of corruption, immorality and other vices?
Well, the church, as far as am I concerned, has many denominations and they all have their different ways of life. Some people preach prosperity, some preach spirituality and you find that we have most of these problems among the Pentecostals where some of the pastors divorce their wives and remarry; where some members dress in an immoral way. I think we really need to talk to ourselves. In terms of corruption, embezzlement of money and all that, I must say that the Anglican Church is constitutionally governed. Here, we have a church that knows what to do; you are not the founder, you don’t even claim that the money belongs to you. The truth is that it will be difficult for you to indulge in corruption and immorality if you know the word of God and stand by it. You must allow the word of God to mould your life so as to become a new creation. Then it will be difficult to find yourself in messy situations that will bring embarrassment to the church. So, I think it is in being very careful and trusting in the word of God that we can make the church to stand in truth and holiness. I pray that God will help us so that on the last day, we will not be condemned.n